Developing hand technique

[Don Worth]

Louie Bellson said once that there are 2 kinds of drummers. Ones that know rudiments and use them and the others that use rudiments but don't know it.
Having a rudimental background is helpful, but I have seen to many "corps" players that play so stiff these days that I think it is not helpful in those cases. I get students who have marched drum corps style marching band lines and have to re-teach them how to play since the idea these days is to play into the drum.

[palmerlouie]

check out this guy: http://www.jeffqueen.com/site/home.htm

i saw him with blast a few yrs ago. just amazing. this is proper snare technique. look at the pic on the front page. no leaning down and playing the drum from the side.

i have been trying to apply this to my technique. if all these amazing snare drummers play this way, then they cant be wrong. virgil and lang have very similar techniques.

[BennyAndTheSkins]

"watch and study vinnie's hand technique. best in the business IMO. the way he keeps his left palm pointing sideways is beautiful. mine tends to point slightly up but i'm working on it."

Absolutely. When I saw Vince on MD 2000, it was like, " Beautiful. His left hand is TOTALLY relaxed, and if I naturally hold my left hand out in front of me, and put the stick in, that's how it naturally sits for me. Weckl said this in his clinic as well - The Basis of the traditional grip is the fulcrum made when you hold the stick between the top edge of your palm thumb, about 1/3 of the way up from the butt end. He played doubles and singles like that. Then the index and middle fingers wrap around to secure and control it. Watch Dave, and Vinnie. Both very relaxed.

Also, Steve Smith's DVD is a great resource. I admit that Steve may look a bit more tense because his traditional grip tends to be a little more palm upward faced, but that may be what's comfortable to him, and he's certainly still very relaxed, you can tell.

Like Weckl said, you should be so relaxed that the stick could fall from your hands. I remember him saying if he led a D & B corps, everyone would be so relaxed when they play. That's how I play, and it's by necessity in my case - I can go days/weeks without playing due to family/job/etc... and then have a gig with maybe one rehearsal beforehand. If I played with tension in my hands, I'd be hosed. Of course I notice that my hands are much stronger, and the finer points of my doubles, etc... come out as my hands get back into shape, but the starting point is always a very relaxed grip, and proper posture/stick balancing. Everything else builds upon that.

[FuseU1]

I know a bit about Vinnie & I don't believe I've ever heard that he did any corps...
Weckl?
Lang looks to me as if he may have...

Just goes to show that not every guy who has really good technique or plays a mean kit had corps background...& inversely, not every corp huy has great traps ability...

However, having a rudimental corps backgrd certainly can't hurt...it's all what you do w it...what you hear, & how you feel & present it.

I think a corps or strict militarily-rudimentally trained player can end up doing wonders if they have a great ear...but one doesnt necessarily have to have that to be a great kit player...I know some cats that play by ear who are just sa-mokin'...but granted, they learned at least some of the more important [if not all of the] standard rudiments.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ September 10, 2004 01:05 PM: Message edited by: FuseU1 ]</font>

[Kurt R]

I'm pretty sure Lang didn't do corps in Austria.

When I was at a clinic he was talking about how he actually started on bass and tried drums in his early teens. Then progressed on keys and got a masters in percussion and keyboard. He still does some tours playing bass too.

[Don Worth]

The comment on guys leaning left. Most of the older names, Gadd, Vinnie, Weckl, ME are all old enough to have had to march with a drum strap and not a nice happy flar harness that the newer guys got. We all lean left because the strap was on the right shoulder and you tended to support the drum there and a little lean on the left shoulder. Also there is compinsation for the drum not being on the sharp angle that was intended for trad grip. The left side of the drum was always a lot higher than the right side which causes leaning when your sitting down and the drum is more flat or slightly angled. Yes it is best to sit straight and play that way but sometimes you split the diff so you could use matched for heavey back beats and latin and then back to trad again. That is how I would explain the lean that us old guys have or it is just old bad backs from carrying drums around your neck before we figured we could sit behind them and have a cocktail while playing. [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[shedder]

if you watch jeff queen play on the vic firth videos, he totally leans. i've been leaning a little for years and never had a problem with my back or shoulders. it's more unnatural not to lean especially since there is a hihat sitting higher than the snare.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ September 10, 2004 01:35 PM: Message edited by: shedder ]</font>

[Don Worth]

Yep, I lean and not a problem at all. Alan Dawson sits about as straight as you can get. remember seeing him years ago and man that guy was straight up and down. The little lean we are talking about is not a big deal. I think the lean is also a relaxed way as to not pull the shoulder down and tense up the arm. Ok, here is another thing. How many of you guys find your hands fold into holding a stick even though your not? Found myself at the store and waiting in line and my hands are folded like I am holding trad grip even though I am not holding sticks. 42 years of my hands folding into that postion versus both hands folding the same. [img]graemlins/thinking.gif[/img] Also, can someone please rate me I feel very low on the totem pole here with only one star....... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Clintuplet]

Brad wrote:
"If you like a greasier approach, there's nothing about having a rudimental background which precludes this. In fact, it allows you to play that way (sloppy), or with the option of clean and controlled execution. It gives you more options, not less. Once again this should be guided by one's ear, taste and musicality."

I couldn't agree with your observations more, Brad. In the above statement you've just described Jack DeJohnette, IMO. I just read a MD article where Jack talked about developing the 26 rudiments. You can here all sorts of drags, ruffs and other rudiments in his playing. And not just the Gadd-ish open interpretations either.
Just my two cents worth.

Clint

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ September 10, 2004 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Clintuplet ]</font>

[Vdrummer]

I know Virgil has studied with Rob Carson, DCI world champion. Jim Kilpatrick (14 time world champion pipe band snare drummer) told me how Virgil got a 3 hour lesson from him and kept picking his brain at various clinics when they were both with Premier. Vinnie is well acquainted with corps drumming techniques, showed a couple of friends of mine various "Cheese" patterns on kit, etc, and showed several of us the Blushda (a non alternating flam drag) at a clinic ages ago. Sonny is the only kit drummer I know who plays Egg Beaters and other corps stuff in his solos.

My point is that the very best drumset players (from a technique standpoint) learn as much as they can about rudimental drumming as they can. That's how they got to be who and where they are as players. But they still won't have anywhere near the same knowledge or skills as a top rudimental snare drummer.

On the other hand, some great set players have pretty awful grips, posture, overall technique but still manage to play great feeling grooves and make wonderful music. Still other top drumset players, have pretty good grips and posture and have great grooves, cool ideas and feel, 4-way interdependence, overall solid technique, but nowhere near the hand vocabulary, control or skills of say, the best 12-17 year old DCI or Pipe Band snare drummers. This is not to take away from them. They focus on other things, which is fine and necessary for the music they play.

But - I wouldn't look to them as being the highest authority on how to develop great hands. DCI and Pipe bands routinely take average level players and get them to play very difficult material cleanly. That's more of the methodology I was recommending to SingleStrk to develop his hands further.

By memorizing interesting phrases, some cool rudiment combinations, and a few solos he'll hopefully find ways to employ these new ideas on the kit. In the process, he'll hopefully reinvigorate his drumming, spur his creativity, while finding an interesting and productive way around his drumming road block.

Brad